Monday, November 29, 2010


A Debate of Significance: Does the Universe Have A Purpose?

A fascinating debate of significance took place recently in Mexico between a team of atheists (Matt Ridley, Michael Shermer and Richard Dawkins) and a team of theists (Christian philosophers William Lane Craig and Douglas Geivett together with Rabbi David Wolpe) as part of the third annual International Festival of Great Minds.

The Significance of the Debate

The debate was about significance, in that the formal topic was 'Does the Universe have a Purpose'; but it was also a highly significant debate, principally because it saw Richard Dawkins (stepping into a vacancy left by Michio Kaku) enter into debate with William Lane Craig for the first time, despite Dawkins' prior refusals so to do (cf. here & here). For example, invited to debate Craig in 2007 Dawkins replied:

'I've never heard of William Craig. A debate with him might look good on his resume, but it wouldn't look good on mine!'

Now that Dawkins has heard of Craig, and has participated in debate with him (despite the perceived damage to his CV!), it will be interesting to see how he responds to future invitations to debate with Craig.Craig describes meeting Dawkins:

'I am currently in Mexico to participate in a conference called Ciudad de las Ideas, which is a conference modeled on the TED conference in the US. It features lots of high tech people, sociologists, psychologists, economists, scientists, etc. As part of the conference they´re having a panel of six of us debate on the question “Does the Universe Have a Purpose?” Well, to my surprise, I just found out that one of the three persons on the other side is Richard Dawkins! It´s true! I met him the other night. When he came my way, I stuck out my hand and introduced myself and said, "I’m surprised to see that you´re on the panel." He replied, "And why not?" I said, “Well, you've always refused to debate me." His tone suddenly became icy cold. "I don't consider this to be a debate with you. The Mexicans invited me to participate, and I accepted.” At that, he turned away. “Well, I hope we have a good discussion,” I said. “I very much doubt it,” he said and walked off. So it was a pretty chilly reception!'

Watch/Listen to the Debate

The video is available in two versions: English version (but no translation of the introductions) & Spanish version (introductions in Spanish and then a Spanish translation over the top of the English speakers) You can also listen to the debate audio sans translation here (the introduction is in Spanish, but the speeches are all in English)

Commentary on the Debate

You can read Douglas Geivett's post-debate commentary here - concerning Dawkins and Craig appearing in the same boxing ring (literally!), Geivett issues his own invitation:

'There has been considerable commentary about the “Craig vs. Dawkins debate” as a result of this event. Prior to this debate, Richard Dawkins had refused all invitations to debate Bill Craig. It’s for this reason that Bill was surprised to learn that Dawkins had agreed to participate in this debate. This, clearly, was the safest venue for Dawkins to appear in debate with Craig, since it was a three-on-three debate with unusually brief allocations of time for each speaker. But Dawkins was not debating Bill Craig only. He was in debate with three theists, in partnership with two fellow atheists. There was nothing the least bit threatening or intimidating about Dawkins on this occasion. I would happily debate him in a one-on-one situation. So if he prefers not to debate Bill Craig, for whatever reason, he’s welcome to debate with me.'

The debate's format of very short speeches (Craig describes it as 'pithy, brisk, and focused') meant there was little room for anyone's arguments to be developed at any great length, which opened the door to some unfortunate accusations about 'arguments from ignorance'. Nevertheless, the theistic side clearly put forward the most arguments (at least ten!) relevant to the contentions they wanted to defend, whereas the atheist team spent most of their time addressing red herrings (repeatedly confusing subjective purposes, values etc. with objective ones) and attacking straw men.

Moreover, the atheists contrived to advocate the incoherent position that 'why' questions are meaningless 'silly questions' and that the answer to the 'why' question posed about the universe was that it had no objective purpose! On the one hand, if 'No' was a sensible answer to the debate question, then the question cannot have been a silly one. On the other hand, if the debate question was a 'silly' question, then 'No' cannot have been a sensible answer.

Friday, November 26, 2010


Michael Behe at Charles Darwin House

I was privileged to be in the invited audience for a discussion between molecular biologist and design theorist Prof Michael Behe and theistic evolutionist Prof Michael Reiss at Charles Darwin House, London, on Monday 22nd November.

I took extensive notes during the meeting. Here's my outline of their presentations and discussion (direct quotes are in quotation marks), along with some commentary [within square brackets]:

1) Behe's Presentation

Should ID be taught as science? Yes, if any other theory purporting to explain the same data is taught.

Science is not co-extensive with rationality, and rationality includes the ability to discern other minds through their physical effects; so there are problems with rules excluding this form of reasoning from science, in that they create a strain between science and rationality.

We spot the activity of other minds through noticing 'the purposeful arrangement of parts' (and Richard Dawkins agrees with this). [I agree, but as Behe himself admitted, his design detection criteria here is rather sketchy.]

2) Reiss' Presentation

Science 'Makes no mention of God' - it proceeds without presuming anything, either positively or negatively, about God [thus opening up the possibility of a mismatch between the scientific explanation and the true explanation of something]

There is 'nothing disreputable' about appealing to God to explain what science cannot explain, but doing so may be premature (i.e. science might explain it later [and it may not!]).

'My prediction' is that ID examples (e.g. bacterial flagellum) will eventually be explained by conventional scientific means [i.e. he issued a 'promissory note'].

Behe is not necessarily saying that God 'interfered' within the universe to cause the flagellum to come together.

Nothing serves as a proof of God's existence - but if one already has faith in God then one can draw certain inferences about God from the data of nature.

Education about ID is best done in RE rather than in science because of the expertise of the teachers, but 'I'm all in favour of student's critically examining' arguments 'for and against' evolution.

Discussion (led by Justin Brierly of Premier Christian Radio)

JB) Has the irreducible complexity of the flagellum been disproved?

B) Criticisms are not rigorous, only comparing protein sequences etc., but even if those results were true they don't solve the problem.

R) Both ID and standard evolutionary theory lack a complete explanation for these systems, my prediction, which 'may be a mistaken prediction', is that evolutionary theory is the correct explanation; but the available data is sketchy (e.g. there are no fossils for this), whereas ID is a 'scientific council of despair'.

B) Was Big Bang theory a scientific council of despair? Big Bang was thought to be a 'science stopper' at the time it was first proposed. I bet £10 that we will not have solved these problems within the standard paradigm in ten year's time. Our understanding of life is getting more complicated not less complicated [waving scientific article entitled 'Life is Complicated'].

JB) Is a design inference not allowed within science?

R) The problem is not with an inference to design, but whether such an inference is 'within science or outside of it'. ID 'sits without' science by definition. Mainstream science did at least consider the Big Bang theory, it rejects ID.

JB) Can ID ever become the dominant paradigm?

B) Yes. Anti-Darwinism is currently more wide-spread then ID though. The cut off is over invoking intelligence as an explanation; but the question should be 'is this explanation true or false'? What if ID is true but outside science by definition? What do you define science as and what do you teach in science class then?

R) I do not want children taught that science can explain everything. e.g. Maths is more fundamental than science. Moral philosophy is another example.

B) [Waving article from 'Cell']: We do not understand evolution of new traits.

JB) The Dover Court Case - is ID religious?

R) ID can make no reference to religion. However, most supporters are religious, e.g. Christians with a creationist ancestry. Still, one can conceive of ID without a deity.

B) It doesn't matter who suggests and idea, but rather whether or not it is true. The Dover school board were Creationists, but 'I present myself' as a counter example to this ID stereotype.

JB) Does ID raise theological problems?

R) Not a theological problem, ID has a long history. I 'prefer' the idea that God gave nature self-sufficient capacities to evolve itself [interesting a priori judgement here].

B) Maybe evolution is more theologically elegant, I don't know, but scientists are meant to follow the evidence, not a priori notions from theology! There doesn't have to be any 'interference' (a loaded word) by God to achieve the design implementation; that can 'unfold'.

R) Is Behe saying 'no miracles'? [I think he is invoking divine middle knowledge]

B) Lenski experiments [on generations of evolving bacteria, which showed only \improvements' based on ditching and breaking genetic information]

R) Polyploidy given as an example of an increase, indeed by a factor of two, in information caused by evolutionary mechanisms [but this is a bad example, as it involves duplicating information not creating new information - photocopying a book doesn't increase the amount of information one has]

B) Biological textbooks say we do know what happened and Darwinism does explain it - but professional biologists know that this is not true.

R) I'd love to see improved quality in UK textbooks.


I thought this was an excellent discussion that built upon some common ground and highlighted some key areas of debate. Reiss did not attack a 'straw man' of ID, as so many do. He was clear, for example, that ID is distinct from Creationism, that it doesn't mention God and that it needn't invoke divine intervention. It also struck me that Reiss agreed with Behe's claim that standard evolutionary biology does not have the ability to explain a great deal at the moment, including things that scientific textbooks say are explained by evolutionary theory. Finally, it stuck me very clearly that while Reiss was content to issue promissory notes on the basis of an a priori theological preference and an a priori definition of 'science', it was Behe who was constantly citing scientific evidence, waving peer reviewed scientific articles around, and calling for science to follow the evidence wherever it led.

During the Q&A time I asked Michael Reiss how he would handle the dilemma posed to his position that ID wasn't science if (as he explicitly admitted it might be) ID were true? Would he simply redefine what he meant by 'science' (to include ID), or would he shunt money from the university science department to the philosophy/theology department to better understand the reality of nature? Which fork of this dilemma would he pick?

In response, Reiss said that if ID were true then this wouldn't merely require a tweaking of our definition of 'science', but would be a really big paradigm shift. It wasn't clear to me that his reply answered the question, unless he was picking the re-definition fork and saying that this would be a big change - but, as I say, it wasn't entirely clear to me if this was what he meant.

The event is due to be broadcast on Justin's Unbelievable show on Premier Radio in the near future.

Monday, November 08, 2010


Apologetics Weekend at Highfield Church, Cardiff

This weekend, 13-14th November, I will be at Highfield Church in Cardiff presenting several events during a weekend on apologetics:

'Apologetics in 3D' Seminar (Highfields Church, from Nov 13, 2010 09:30 AM to Nov 13, 2010 01:00 PM) - This seminar is aimed at Christians who want to be better equipped to defend the Christian faith and answer difficult questions. It includes a time for Q&A.

'Apologetics in 3D' Lunch (Highfields Church, from Nov 13, 2010 01:00 PM to Nov 13, 2010 02:00 PM) - Lunch to round off the Apologetics in 3D seminar. Please register in advance by emailing or calling 029 2065 0740

The End of Atheism? (Highfields Church, from Nov 13, 2010 07:30 PM to Nov 13, 2010 09:30 PM) - An evening for the believer and sceptic alike – an ideal opportunity to bring a friend who is asking searching questions about God. Includes an open Q&A.

The Real Jesus (Highfields Church, from Nov 14, 2010 09:30 AM to Nov 14, 2010 10:45 AM)
14 Nov - Morning Service - 09:30am - Peter S Williams

The Real Jesus (Highfields Church, from Nov 14, 2010 11:15 AM to Nov 14, 2010 12:30 PM)
14 Nov - Morning Service - 11:15am - Peter S Williams

Church Lunch with Q & A (Highfields Church, from Nov 14, 2010 01:00 PM to Nov 14, 2010 02:30 PM) - After the morning services, there's another opportunity to put your questions to Prof. Williams after sharing lunch together.

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